This must be “Stand Your Ground” day at the Tennessean [newspaper] with a whole host of op-eds on the recently passed legislation allowing you to defend your home and self.
Against the relaxing of rules requiring you to prove you were in imminent danger, defense attorney David Raybin says:
The new law erodes the concept of necessity so that “forced entry” into any residence, building, or vehicle allows those within to fire at will. Where before there was a requirement of some actual danger, the new law is nothing less than shoot first and ask questions later.
The recent legislation makes one immune to both criminal and civil liability under this new, greatly expanded definition of righteous gunplay. We have all but done away with government sponsored executions but now allow our citizens the right to impose capital punishment on a trick-or-treater who bangs too loudly at the door. This new “taking-the-law-into-your-own-hands” mentality has manifested itself into a legislative reaction that our police and prosecutors can no longer protect us. I reject that idea.
Yeah, well, I’ll keep that in mind next October 31st, but if they’re six-foot-two, wearing a mask, coming in the back door with a crow-bar, and holding a firearm, I’ll assume they aren’t looking for the candied-apples.
On the side of common sense, the NRA’s Chris Cox says:
. . .Now, if attacked, this “castle doctrine” law will allow you to defend yourself and your loved ones without fear of criminal prosecution or civil litigation. This law also eliminates any “duty to retreat,” thereby providing crime victims with more legal life-saving options. While we lead the fight for the rights of the victim, some, including the gun-control lobby, seek to maintain the status quo. They provoke lawmakers and the news media with sensational but bogus monikers like, “shoot first laws” in an effort to defeat practical victim’s rights measures.
Separating fact from fiction, one will find that castle doctrine laws only apply when victims are attacked in a place where they have a legal right to be and when they fear bodily harm or worse. These laws in no way preclude investigation or review by law enforcement or prosecutors. Crime victims do not have the luxury of time when confronted by a criminal. Law enforcement, good intentions notwithstanding, cannot be everywhere every time. If victims believes their only hope for survival is to stand their ground and fight, then they ought to have that option.
Back again to the “anti-” side of the issue, the Tennessean itself chimes in with an editorial listing one extreme example of what could happen (and I note that it happened before the new law went into effect. Then, they haul out this canard:
The law may result in more criminals getting their hands on guns. That’s especially true if more citizens seek permits to carry guns in their vehicles and those vehicles are broken into.
So their argument here is that if more people have guns, some of those guns could be stolen. I think this is a ridiculous argument (should we ban laptops so they can’t be stolen?) and is completely off-topic to the rights of people to protect themselves.
Back on the “pro-” side, the sponsor of the legislation, Rep. Curry Todd explains:
This year, I sponsored House Bill 411, which has been more commonly referred to as the “Castle Doctrine.” We did pass a version of this, expanding the circumstances under which the use of force is presumed justified. I felt this measure was vitally important; our citizens should be able to defend themselves.
I believe it to be a very important right for people to be able to defend themselves in their homes, their cars, and their businesses. This year we extended that to “curtilage” as well, which refers to the area around your home. I have always supported the use of deadly force — if you, your loved ones, or your co-workers feel that your lives are threatened, you should be able to defend yourself.
There are also letters to the editor about all of this. While the paper’s own editorial clearly shows where they stand on the issue, I’ll give them credit for seeking out two proponents’ op-eds in favor of the bill. That’s all we can ask of media; present both sides of the argument. That’s something the New York Times, Washington Post, and a few others could learn a lesson about.
18 Responses to “Castle Doctrine in Tennessee”



on 09 Jun 2007 at 7:46 am # Rich Paul
I like your blog! I hope that you will consider Ron Paul as an alternative to Fred Thompson. Ron is not nearly as good an actor, I like Thompson on Law and Order. The problem with Thompson is that he does not support returning the size and scope of the American government to that specified by the constitution. Lets continue to enjoy Thompson on Law and Order, and allow Ron Paul to impose Law and Order, first and foremost, on our out-of-control Federal Government.
Regards,
Rich
on 09 Jun 2007 at 9:15 am # Chuck Pelto
TO: Jeff Soyer
RE: This ‘Defense’ Attorney….
“The new law erodes the concept of necessity so that “forced entry” into any residence, building, or vehicle allows those within to fire at will. Where before there was a requirement of some actual danger, the new law is nothing less than shoot first and ask questions later.” — David Raybin
….comes across like he spends most of his time defending burglars. Or, it could be that he is upset that he won’t have any more business from defending people who use weapons to defend themselves AND their property.
Maybe he should diversify his capabilities, instead, i.e., start chasing ambulances. [Note: If we’re lucky, he’ll get hit by a bus.]
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Lawyer, n., One skilled at circumventing the law. — Ambrose Bierce, The Devil’s Dictionary]
on 09 Jun 2007 at 9:19 am # Chuck Pelto
TO: Rich Paul
RE: Maybe…
…you could stay ‘On-Topic’.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Those who would treat politics and morality apart will never understand the one or the other. — John, Viscount Morley of Blackburn]
on 09 Jun 2007 at 9:41 am # Han Solo
>Ron Paul to impose
Sorry..Ron Paul is a good conservative, but he is totally clueless about the real danger from Islam that the west is facing.
That issue is far too important right now to ignore, and to put someone it office who thinks the reason that Islam spawns killers is because of US policy and not because the Quoran is fulll of the writings of a sadistic murderous pedophile.
on 09 Jun 2007 at 10:30 am # Wildmonk
The anti-gun commentary from the “Defense” attorney (note the irony there?) is typical of the “we know better than you” school of elitism. Does he really suppose that his fellow citizens are just slobbering over the prospect of blowing away trick-or-treaters for “knocking too loudly?” Is he so jaded and paranoid that he believes that the average, law-abiding citizen would actually WANT to shoot someone? After years of observing safe gun handling (and teaching the same to my kids and some of their friends) the thought of pointing a loaded weapon at a human being is extremely disconcerting.
First, I hope that I’m never faced with the prospect of an intruder invading my house and threatening my family. If I do have to face an intruder, I’d next hope that I could physically kick him out (having spent several years in the ring, it is at least plausible for me - much less, say, for an untrained woman or a senior citizen).
If I cannot do that then I’d hope that brandishing a weapon would convince them to leave.
But what happens when all of that fails? According to the “Defense” lawyer, should I just roll over and hope that the “police and prosecutors” will protect me? This man isn’t a “citizen” - he’s a child. And he wants to make the rest of us children as well.
on 09 Jun 2007 at 10:53 am # Ed
There is too much humor in a defense attorney pre-defending potential clients. Of course he opposes the Castle Doctrine! Of course he opposes guns! If criminals are prevented from practicing crime, either through fear or lead poisoning, Mr. Raybin loses business. For a man who spends his time ensuring that citizens are NOT protected by the police (who plant all evidence against his clients) and prosecutors (who bring false charges against his clients), he sure seems to trust them to protect everyone else. Perhaps when his daughter and/or wife are raped by an intruder while he cowers in the closet awaiting the police to arrive 45 mintues after his ADT alarm is tripped, he’ll change his mind. Or maybe he’ll defend the criminal…
on 09 Jun 2007 at 11:47 am # tom gunn
Speaking of ADT - “We’ll call the police so you don’t have to”. It is peace of mind for a price - don’t you feel safer now??? And If you can stay on the line we will record your rape, robbery or murder.
tom gunn
on 09 Jun 2007 at 12:02 pm # Ari Tai
Seems that the need for self-defense tracks the amount of civil society - which changes over time and can be measured. The less civil we are, the more individuals must (be allowed to) look after their own welfare, including defense. Meaning the need to lock doors and remove keys from cars has a real, measurable cost.
Where the degree of civil society is due to (built out of) a combination of factors that both add and subtract, each of which can be measured and charted over time, geography and import. A pity that we don’t attach a cost in civil society to consideration of various policies. Perhaps we would place conservative values higher if we did.
on 09 Jun 2007 at 1:10 pm # reneviht
Your counterexample about the laptops doesn’t quite address their objection. They don’t mind the act of stealing; they mind the fact that a weapon is in the hands of a criminal.
Of course, I’m still not convinced, since there are plenty of other ways a criminal can get his/her hands on a gun, and I’d rather have a weapon of my own when facing one anyway. I just thought I should let you know that there’s a bit of a logical problem with the example so you can consider coming up with a better one.
on 09 Jun 2007 at 2:17 pm # mrsizer
reneviht,
How about just extending the analogy a bit instead of scrapping it: New Anti-Hacker law makes it illegal to carry a laptop in a car because it might be stolen by hackers.
Granted, it’s a bit of a stretch; someone might steal a laptop to surf pr0n or email grandma whilst the motive in gun-theft is probably always a bit more nefarious.
on 09 Jun 2007 at 2:43 pm # uticn
uhh, maybe if we could carry EVERYPLACE, we wouldn’t have to leave the firearms in the car. Think the Tennesseean would be happy with that idea?
on 09 Jun 2007 at 6:13 pm # Aaron
It’s bizarre that they argue that there’s any question of whether “police and prosecutors can no longer protect us”. “No duty to protect” is a fact of law enforcement routinely upheld in the courts: Every murder victim is an example of the failure of the legal system to “protect” us, and by definition, it’s not until someone has tried to kill you (and quite likely succeeded) that there’s any crime to prosecute. Until that happens, it’s up to you.
on 09 Jun 2007 at 6:27 pm # Tagore Smith
I largely grew up in Vermont, so I’m not pathologically frightened of firearms and I know from experience that you can have high rates of gun ownership and low rates of violent crime.
It’s true that not very many legal gun owners are likely to shoot trick or treaters, but the problem, when considering gun laws, is the marginal cases. In fact in 1992, on Halloween, a Japanese exchange student named Yoshihiro Hattori was shot and killed in Baton Rouge after going to the wrong house looking for a Halloween party. The shooter was acquitted under a Louisiana “Castle Law”- unbelievable given the circumstances, which are described at the Wikipedia entry.
I’m not arguing for disarming homeowners, and I do think that a lot of law has in the past gone too far in putting people legitimately defending themselves at legal risk. But owning a firearm is a serious responsibility; if you choose to aim it at someone and pull the trigger you had better have used good judgment in doing so, particularly if it turns out that they were no threat to you. There’s a difficult balance there, one I think the law should reflect.
on 09 Jun 2007 at 7:20 pm # HerrMorgenholz
Yeah, well, I’ll keep that in mind next October 31st, but if they’re six-foot-two, wearing a mask, coming in the back door with a crow-bar, and holding a firearm,
….they might be an “Anti Drug Task Force” that lost their way.
on 09 Jun 2007 at 8:01 pm # JeepThang
Linked. Thanks for pointing this out.. I missed it.
on 10 Jun 2007 at 6:03 am # Ryan Waxx
> It’s true that not very many legal gun owners are likely to shoot trick or treaters, but the problem, when considering gun laws, is the marginal cases. In fact in 1992, on Halloween, a Japanese exchange student…
There will be marginal cases for nearly every law. The mere existence of marginal cases does not tell us weather the law itself is invalid.
The plural of ancedote is not data.
on 10 Jun 2007 at 3:09 pm # Tagore Smith
Well, the existence of marginal cases should inform our understanding of laws like this. Pretty much all shootings covered under Castle Laws are marginal, or at least exceptional, cases- I have never had to shoot anyone, and most gun owners will never have good reason to shoot anyone.
On the other hand, most gun owners will have the opportunity to shoot someone without good cause. Most will also have the good sense to think before pulling the trigger. Some will not, and people will be killed because someone who should not have owned a gun did. This is inevitable, and is not, IMHO, a sufficient reason to ban guns, but it is a cost associated with widespread gun ownership. Banning guns would also have costs, and part of what makes the banners disingenuous is their refusal to recognize that those costs exist. I’m not in favor of banning guns; as a consequence I want to see the laws surrounding gun ownership and use crafted so that they maximize the benefits of gun ownership while minimizing the costs.
I like the gist of Castle Laws, actually- I have certainly never been a fan of the retreat doctrine, and was a bit surprised to discover it (in a civil context) while reading Prosser a long time ago. If you attack me, and I feel threatened by that attack, you should expect no quarter. I’ll worry about the law later; you get to worry about the surgeon/mortician bills. I’d rather be in trouble with the law than dead.
But the devil is in the details with this sort of law, and things like extending the provisions to curtilage worry me. Ideally, the law should encourage people to think before shooting, but not stay their hand at the crucial moment. I’m not sure that this law strikes the right balance. I’m in favor of granting people the right to use deadly force in self defense, but I want the law to reflect how weighty a decision it is to use deadly force. This is a very pro-gun position, IMHO. The more accidental/unnecessary shootings there are, the stronger the case for gun control will seem.
It’s not clear to me that the plural of anecdote isn’t data. It is clear to me that the singular of anecdote is “data point”. There are quite a few data points pushing up daisies because some idiot was not competent to own a firearm. To refuse to acknowledge these “anecdotes” is as bad as refusing to acknowledge the lives that have been saved by the judicious use of bullets.
on 10 Jun 2007 at 4:52 pm # Keith P
Here in “Kaliforrniaa” there working
on really usefull legislation. We seem
to need our firing pins engraved. I
had no idea. I already know what I
want engraved on mine, but it’s not
“PG” rated. Most of these idiots are
clueless. 2 seconds with a 10cent
file will defeat the engraving on the
pin.